New Era of Fashion PR: Social Media, Collaboration, and Storytelling with Julian Vogel

David M. Watts [: 00:00:01

Hello and welcome to just a fashion minute with me, David M. Watts. This is more than a podcast. It's a movement, a call to redefine fashion and spotlight the talent that's shaping its future. This is just a fashion minute with me, David M Watts. Last week I spoke to Karen Franklin about inclusion in the fashion industry and often the lack thereof. It was an amazing conversation. If you haven't already, give it a listen.

David M. Watts [: 00:00:34

On today's episode, we're joined by Julian Vogel where we will be discussing the changing face of PR and fashion. Julian Vogel is a leading light in the world of communications with a career that has seen him transition from selling jeans in his father's shops to founding the renowned firm modus BPCM. And today we'll be talking about the shift in client expectations from PR companies, how social media has revolutionised fashion PR, and we'll get some top tips from our expert for how our younger fashionistas can find their way into the industry. But as always, let's kick the show off with my just a fashion minute roundup. Simon Port Jacques Mousse is rarely out of the news, namely due to the success of his fashion brand and the brilliant and innovative marketing and pop up campaigns that have Gen Z females flocking. His CEO, Bastille Daguza, is stepping down after just two years with the brand, and it's raised eyebrows as to why he's leaving. The business is doubling every year, apparently, and is tipped to reach €500 million by the end of 2025. So speculation is rife about why Daguza is exiting, given the apparent success of the business.

David M. Watts [: 00:01:48

One rumor going around is that Jacques Mousse himself is in the running to take the top job at Javonchi, the french house owned by LVMH. So Jacques Mousse, as a frenchman himself, could be a good fit. But we wait to see if there's any truth to this rumor. There's also talk that LVMH, or one of the other mega fashion corporations, have been eyeing up the business with a view to investment, and in which case they'd want their own appointed CEO. But chatter in the industry suggests Jacques Mousse turned down a proposal from LVMH. Although that's not official, it's important to remember that the mega fashion corporations cannot create new fashion businesses, they can only buy them. So one suspects that Mr. Arno, the head of LVMH, will have his eye on the Jacques mousse business.

David M. Watts [: 00:02:42

Speaking of Givenchy, the LVMH owned brand, the reason? The creative director role is vacant is because Matthew Williams, the american designer, has exited the job after three years in the role. Williams, who was a skateboard kid from California, has not really been a good fit for the heritage french house, and it's not unkind to say he didn't really bring any new relevance to the brand. Williams has his own streetwear and denim brand, Alex, which has just had investment from a Hong Kong based investor so we assume is back to expand his own brand. Givenchy is a true heritage brand and really needs to find a designer who can look back to the house codes and reinvent some of the DNA for a contemporary audience. The two things aren't mutually exclusive. There's also suggestions that the management have somewhat wavered on what direction to take, jumping from a focus on reinvigorating couture when british designer Claire Wade Keller, the first british woman to helm a french house to then go full circle and wanting to develop luxury street wear to attract a Gen Z consumer that didn't work, as is evident from Matthew Williams'exit. AMi, the french designer brand of Alexandre Matusi has opened a second retail site on Mordor Street, Soho, London. The brand is growing both in stature and profile, especially in Asia where China and South Korea are a large part of the growth strategy.

David M. Watts [: 00:04:11

And with its instantly recognizable red heart logo, the knitwear has been hugely popular with Gen Zetters. The brand has more than 50 retail sites globally and is aiming to turn over €300 million annually. I personally love this brand and I admire the business strategy that has carved out an interesting space for itself in menswear. I hear an interesting story as how the brand came about. When Matusi was working for another luxury fashion brand, he couldn't afford to buy the menswear clothes he was designing, so he decided to launch his own menswear collection, which was an instant success from the first season. I would love to have him on the show and hear his story. Something being talked about during fashion month is that Ricardo Tshi might be working on launching his own label. Tshi, who has been at Burberry as chief creative officer for five years, presented his final collection for the brand in spring summer 23.

David M. Watts [: 00:05:04

There were very mixed reviews about his time at Burberry, with many people not buying into his take for the heritage british brand. For those dedicated followers of fashion, you might recall that Ricardo Tshi actually prior to Burberry, turned Javonchi into a hugely successful brand where he was creative director for twelve years from 2005 until 2017 and reintroduced oat couture, increasing revenues sixfold during his tenure, Tshi was considered by many to be a bad choice for the top creative job at Burberry. And the collection seemed to be a bit more bizarre. As time went on, a huge push on big logo accessories was everywhere. And now we see that Logomania has been superseded by quiet luxury, where us retail buyers are suggesting that sales of logoed and branded fashion are down 50% on the previous year. Also quite timely, as Burberry, under the stewardship of british designer Daniel Lee, is having major challenges with sales. So that's my roundup this week. Julian, is there anything that jumps out of you from this week's roundup?

Julian Vogel [: 00:06:12

It's interesting, isn't it? When you look at all of those different stories, it's the difference between brand and people. And when you look at someone like Alessandro Matissi, he's head of his own brand. When you look at Simon, he's head of his own brand at Jacques Mousse, and then you have these other moments where you have these revolving doors of creative directors that get brought in to add some sparkle, add some diamondism. And then sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I mean, look at Gucci. We had the end of the rain and we've got the start of a new rain, and everyone's looking at the figures to see is it going to work.

David M. Watts [: 00:06:54

Something that we talked about is our fashion brands being run by accountants and financiers and investors. And really the passion and the creativity and the fashion has gone out of fashion.

Julian Vogel [: 00:07:05

I mean, in my career. So for me, it's been about 35 years, but I remember really clearly the moment when the money came into fashion. So even when you look at brands like Louis Vuitton, they didn't have many stores up until the early 90s. If you actually look at the number of stores, it was actually quite low. And there was this moment where suddenly these groups sort of started. And I would say probably Dominico de Soleil starting the Gucci group was kind of quite early on. And then obviously what happened with LVMH, and then what happened with the sort of development of these sort of super groups. And then private equity came in and venture capital came in, and then there was this sort of fight to get as many working out which brands could be scaled.

Julian Vogel [: 00:07:56

And it's still going on now. I had a meeting with a new group. They're going to provide manufacturing, they're going to provide marketing, they're going to provide everything. But they want brands that are already at a sort of 30 million level.

David M. Watts [: 00:08:10

A success level that's like, so high.

Julian Vogel [: 00:08:13

Or even when you look at something like Jimmy Choo, it's much easier to take a brand from 30 million to 300 million than it is to get it to the 30 million in the first place.

David M. Watts [: 00:08:24

Yeah, indeed. And that's one of the challenges, isn't it? Now the fashion industry has changed so much anyhow. But trying to grow a business organically is Nayan impossible today. And running with scissors, running with the sharks. The competitors are so huge, the mega corporations that now run these brands, it's becoming extraordinary at the scale we used to measure fashion businesses in hundreds of millions. Now they're measured in billions and now tens of billions. Dior have turned over 20 billion. Louis Vuitton has turned over 20 billion in annual sales.

David M. Watts [: 00:09:03

So it's like, the numbers are just extraordinary. They're off the chart.

Julian Vogel [: 00:09:07

Some of the designers that I've been meeting and talking to, and they're maybe a year or 18 months out of college. In order to have a business, you have to be able to design, produce, and manufacture three seasons before you get paid for the first season. So the amount of money that's needed in order to actually have a fashion brand is extraordinary.

David M. Watts [: 00:09:31

And even in America, I've been talking with brands that for up to two, three, 5 million in turnover, and they can't sustain the business on 5 million, and you kind of go, it's crazy. Thank you very much for that insight. Our topic today is really talking about the changing face of public relations in fashion. But before we dive into that, I'd really be interested to know what your earliest memory is of public relations.

Julian Vogel [: 00:09:59

First of all, my parents always. We always had all the newspapers. So, like, on a Sunday, there was every newspaper imaginable, from the Mail to the Financial Times.

David M. Watts [: 00:10:10

Your parents were creatives, weren't they?

Julian Vogel [: 00:10:12

Yeah. My father had worked for Levi's as the marketing director, and then he went on to have a chain of his own stores. So there was always that going on. And my mother was an art director, and she'd worked with photographers like Norman Parkinson, and she'd done the campaigns for Kameh. And before she gave it all up to look after the two of us, there was a lot going on in the background, but as a child, you don't really realize what that input is. But I do remember going through all the newspapers and following particular journalists and being really fascinated about the advertising and the editorial without realizing what they were. And I found a book the other day of I'd gone through all these magazines and actually cut out the campaigns and stuck them into a scrapbook, because I was fascinated by the sense that each issue there was the same brand but a different picture. And again, not really realizing that that was marketing and advertising.

David M. Watts [: 00:11:14

Very interesting. So how did you actually start out in public relations?

Julian Vogel [: 00:11:20

Well, I did a degree in business studies, and then the final year was a marketing sort of specialism. And I have a twin brother who went a different route. He went to art school and then textile design, and he called me one day and said, oh, we can go to some fashion shows. And I was like, what do you mean? He said, oh, I'm doing some work for this printing company, and a guy's girlfriend works for a PR agency and she needs some help. And I didn't really know what a PR agency was. This was pre Abfab, so I had.

David M. Watts [: 00:11:55

No role models for people who may not know. What is abfab?

Julian Vogel [: 00:12:00

Well, abfab, for those of you who don't know, you need to go straight onto YouTube and google it. It was an incredible comedy show that Jennifer Saunders and dorm French created about a pr agency. The head was called Adina Monsoon, and she was this incredible larger than life character. And her best friend was the editor of a magazine, and she was called Patsy. And it just parodied the whole fashion industry and gave us all a lot of fun.

David M. Watts [: 00:12:36

I think there was a wonderful episode where they were running up and down the hallways of a building, kind of shouting and throwing their hands in the air. And somebody was, know what's going on? What's this all about? And Adina turned and said, it's all about the drama, which is so true. Which summed up public relations. End of.

Julian Vogel [: 00:12:54

And we ended up at a Vivian Westwood show. I guess it was 1988, mini crinnies in Olympia. And then from that, I bunked off most of my lectures and went and helped backstage. So I was there with a clipboard calling Naomi's name and Gail Elliott and Yasmin Lebon. And again, not really realizing what all this was, but I loved the kind of theatre of it and the excitement of being backstage. And although I hadn't studied fashion, I was very interested in clothes and costume and that sort of thing. And then when I graduated, I met this extraordinary woman, Jean Bennett, who sort of invented fashion pr. And then she didn't really know what to do with me, so she used to take me in her car and then I would sit outside her appointment so that she didn't have to pay for a parking meter.

Julian Vogel [: 00:13:50

And this went on for a few weeks, and then I was allowed in the office and just got thrown into. They had clients like Galliano and Ali Capolino and Vivian Westwood, funnily enough, but things like Freeman's catalogue and Ray Ban. And so I just got thrown into this world of products and shows and stylists coming in to dress bands, and I just found it absolutely fascinating.

David M. Watts [: 00:14:14

And that was how the bug. So the bug started.

Julian Vogel [: 00:14:18

Yeah. And I think it was interesting at the time because it really was an undiscovered or it was a secret world. It wasn't really something that your careers advisor was going to tell you about. It felt like very much behind the scenes and something that, unless you were actually in it, you didn't really know.

David M. Watts [: 00:14:34

Existed in terms of when your career was starting out or happening. Did anybody give you a helping hand that changed the course of your career?

Julian Vogel [: 00:14:45

I feel I was really lucky. I think that first job at Gene Bennett, the whole of the kind of industry would come into the showroom, so it would be all the editors, all the stylists. My brother was at fashion college, and then a lot of his friends had sort of graduated and gone into various roles. So some had gone into design, some had gone into styling. And I remember meeting Anne Marie Curtis on my first day, and it was her first day at sky magazine. And obviously she went on to be the editor in chief of British l. So we met on our first days and we ended up sort of growing up in the industry together. And I think that's one of the things I found really interesting about the industry, is that you find your tribe and you find your cohorts, and then everyone tends to sort of pull each other up and help each other.

Julian Vogel [: 00:15:37

And so one friend's doing a shoot, so we lent them the clothes. Another friend's a makeup artist, another friend's a writer, another friend's a designer. And then a lot of those people are still even someone like Edward Enemfell. I met him when he was 17, and then next minute he's editor in chief of british pen. But I think there were particular people. I met Ali Capolino or Alison Lloyd from Ali Capolino. I met Karen Franklin. I ended up doing a lot around the clothes show that I met all the clothes show team, and they sort of adopted me and got me to come on shoots with them, got me to go to events with them.

Julian Vogel [: 00:16:16

There was the clothes show live. And I think all of those moments introduced me to more people, introduced me to more designers. I feel very lucky. And I feel that the industry for me has always been very friendly. I mean, there are obviously moments where journalists, I would call and they wouldn't take my call or they would not show up or. My policy has always been to kill people with kindness. And so I think the kinder you are. I remember one of the first shows I did was for Vivian Westwood.

Julian Vogel [: 00:16:48

And I hadn't got a clue what I was doing, but they said to me, you need to do the seating plan, you need to do the ticket allocation. And so I just sort of took it on myself to do it. And I figured that, well, there would be a hierarchy somewhere and certain people needed to sit in certain places. I kept getting these calls and people, like, screaming down the phone at me, demanding tickets. And then I'd get people calling and saying, oh, I just happened to be in London. I don't suppose you could give me a ticket. And that person, I was far more receptive. And then it just so happened that that one person who called and said, I just happened to be in London.

Julian Vogel [: 00:17:29

When I asked her name, she said she was called Grace Coddington. And I had no idea who Grace Coddington was, but I put her in the front row because she'd been very.

David M. Watts [: 00:17:37

Nice to me, very polite. Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting because the public relations communications, particularly in fashion, has a little bit of a reputation. And we know that there are lots of eccentric characters or lots of larger than life characters in fashion. But in public relations, it seems to particularly attract a very specific type of person. I know you don't, thankfully, you are one of the nice people and it's something I've already said. And I remember turning up in Milan at shows that you were looking after and we hadn't either got tickets or we'd arrive late or whatever. And you're going, oh, yeah, it's fine, come on in. And being sat down.

David M. Watts [: 00:18:16

It doesn't happen like that all the time. Isn't it so interesting how some people can be incredibly helpful and friendly, that we're not coming to these shows because we want to cause trouble or we're not interested in the industry, or we're not in the industry, and then people are going to go, no, you haven't got a ticket. No, go away, or just ignore you. Happens all the time. But I always remember saying, oh, julian, actually, he would get us into the show.

Julian Vogel [: 00:18:40

I'm really glad to hear that. I think that for me, I always remembered, well, I was always aware of what my job was. My job was to make the journalists lives easier and to allow them to write a great piece or do a great thing about my client. I remember some of the first times I met Susie Menkez, and she was like the best training that I ever got because I remember one of the first shows I did in Milan, and I'd sat her and, okay, well, that's not the end of my job, like showing someone to their seat. And she said, have you got a profile of the designer? Have you got a timeline of their heritage and their history? I didn't because no one had said to me, that's what I needed. But you can be damn sure the next time I saw any other journalist I had in my folder, I have to say that Susie was pretty much the only person that ever asked for it. I knew what my place was in the industry and I knew what my role was. And I think that there were just as many people on the styling side and the journalism side who didn't seem to understand what their job was.

David M. Watts [: 00:19:44

Absolutely. As I've said, a lot of people in fashion don't understand how fashion works.

Julian Vogel [: 00:19:48

It's funny, isn't it? But then you think, well, I'm here to do a job, and I'm here to do a job on behalf of my client, and if I can do that better and better each time, or if I can show my worth, or then I know that next time those journalists are going to ask me or they're going to be more amenable. I think it's like anything, isn't it? It's funny when people forget why they're there and what they're there for.

David M. Watts [: 00:20:13

I mean, that's a perfect response, because I remember one of the conversations I was having with the public, with a PR woman, and I don't quite know exactly what the context was. It's not important. But she was saying to me, I'm just too busy. And I said, but this is your job. Isn't this what you do? This is your job. And I was slightly miffed, but also slightly bewildered that she was kind of too busy to be actually doing the job that she was supposed to be doing, but then coming back to me, saying, I'm just too busy, but it's your job.

Julian Vogel [: 00:20:44

I know it's funny, but also, I think, my most hated thing and one of the things I try and instill in my team, know a pr that doesn't know their stuff. I mean, that doesn't know, hasn't read the show notes, doesn't know the details about the designer, doesn't know what the house stands know, can't give basic information. And I think maybe that's because I learnt with sort of journalists like Hillier Alexander, who would call me up and literally scream down the phone at me, wanting the price and the caption. And so I suppose, in a way, I learned much more on the job, whereas, I guess, because there weren't any pr courses, I guess I was lucky enough to learn from some of the best and learn what to do and what not to do.

David M. Watts [: 00:21:30

Amazing. One of my favorite quotes at the moment is to all those people who shut the door on my face, I'm coming back to buy the building. Has anybody ever shut the door in your face?

Julian Vogel [: 00:21:39

I think, yeah, I'm sure they have. I remember early on just being very frustrated because it was so limited, like the number of pages or the number of magazines or the number of newspapers. And if certain people didn't write the story for your client, you had no other recourse. Whereas now, obviously, we've got. You can have your own channels, you've got, your own brands have got their own way of doing that. But I always thought that the best revenge was winning even better and better clients. And it was interesting how some of those people end up having to talk to you. I remember there was one moment where we had our clients, we had 40 pages of advertising in vogue across all our clients, and suddenly getting calls from the publishers and the editors.

Julian Vogel [: 00:22:25

So in a way, that was the payback.

David M. Watts [: 00:22:30

Do better and bigger. So they have to talk to you.

Julian Vogel [: 00:22:33

Yeah.

David M. Watts [: 00:22:33

Before we go for a break, tell me, how would you define fashion?

Julian Vogel [: 00:22:38

It's so funny, isn't it? Fashion. That word is so intangible and it means so many things to so many people. I prefer the word style myself, but I think fashion is constantly changing, it's constantly evolving. But I think that it is also very individual. And I think that it's also about confidence and how you wear things and how you put things together and how you express yourself.

David M. Watts [: 00:23:07

Fantastic. I'm intrigued, hearing about your journey in public relations.

David M. Watts [: 00:23:12

This is just a reminder that you're listening to just a fashion minute with me, your host, David M. Watts. Let's get back to the show.

David M. Watts [: 00:23:20

Our topic today, the changing face of public relations. Both you and I have been around before and after the explosion in social media. It really has changed everything about industry, but also particularly about fashion and creative. Do you agree with that?

Julian Vogel [: 00:23:37

I do. I think that there are a lot of changes, but I actually want to go back a step because I think it's also interesting to look at what hasn't changed. And for me, I spend a lot of time reimagining, trying to understand, and also I love trying to explain what we do to people who have nothing to do with our industry.

David M. Watts [: 00:23:59

Very useful today.

Julian Vogel [: 00:24:00

Yeah. And so where I've got to is, I think there are two spheres or two worlds, and I think all of our work in fashion pr spins off that. So I think there's one world which is storytelling and everything around the brand and all the different stories that there are to tell. And then you look at how do you tell those stories? Do you tell it through a show? Do you tell it through a campaign? Do you tell it through a film? Do you tell it through a newsletter? Do you tell it through a website? So all of the storytelling and all of those platforms, and then the second side is community. How do you build a community? How do you reach a community? So is that a community of editors, a community of buyers, a community of clients, students, investors? And what we do are the bridges between all of that. So we might be trying to tell a story to an investor, we might be trying to tell a story to a new retailer, we might be trying to tell a story to a customer. And I think that that hasn't really changed. I was doing that back in the 80s, but what has changed is all the different ways that we can do that.

Julian Vogel [: 00:25:11

And social media and digital media has given us just a plethora of new and dynamic ways to reach all of those different audiences. And that's really what's changed. And I think it will keep changing, because what I've noticed is, I mean, I'm sure you have as well, like how many new magazines? There are a lot of people within brands. There's a lot of things they do, as we've already said, which are ego driven. And a lot of those creative directors, they want to see those pictures in print because they're actually communicating it to their peers. Some of those magazines, we know how small the readership is, but we know it's very targeted, and we know there are the things that can be done with the magazine in terms of displaying it in a store or sending it out to a client or pinning it on a mood board. I always feel like as much as you go one way, there's always a counter opposite. So the more and more digital we go, the more we go into AI, the more we go into gaming.

Julian Vogel [: 00:26:13

There's still this desire as human beings to want to go to a store, to want to touch things to want to be invited to a small dinner or all of these brand experiential things that are happening. So in a way, for me, I just think that the storytelling and the community building is the thing that hasn't changed and will never change. But what will change is the bridges.

David M. Watts [: 00:26:38

How you deliver them, how you deliver to clients. So it's really interesting. We've seen the PR landscape has changed considerably and quite a few firms have subsequently closed, gone to the wall. Do you think it's because these businesses weren't able to adapt?

Julian Vogel [: 00:26:53

It's difficult, I think, because a lot of those companies that have gone are people I know very well, and friends and actually competitors and rivals. So it has been really interesting and I've really looked at. I've done quite a lot of soul searching and analysis. I think there were some agencies that went very early on in lockdown and I think that actually they'd had enough, they'd done it for a long time. It's a tough business. It's tough to make money, it's tough to make margins. And I think they just decided, let's just go and do clause. I think some of the more recent ones, they had evolved, but I think they'd evolved too quickly and I think they'd moved too far away from their core.

Julian Vogel [: 00:27:35

A lot of agencies were looking at not having showrooms anymore, not having to do sample send outs because it's such a pain and it's so time intensive and we have to have central London locations that just have rails of know. It's insane. So I think that they'd tried to move very quickly, much more into strategic work, much more into content creation. But I think that what happened was they invested massively into those areas, but they didn't have the work. And so what we've been doing is much more. We've been doing it in a much slower way. So we're providing a lot more strategic work, a lot more content creation, a lot more events, but we're doing it quite slowly and we're doing it as the work kind of exists.

David M. Watts [: 00:28:17

Interesting. Which kind of brings me to my question. You yourself merged Modus with another agency at BPCM. How did that come about, if you're able to share that information?

Julian Vogel [: 00:28:29

I didn't really talk about how I joined Modus. I worked for Jean Bennett for a year and in that youthful kind of enthusiasm, thought I knew everything. And I met my, then my business partner of 28 years, Diana hall, who'd started Modus. And that was an incredible journey through you know, romp through all the brands and all the big houses and. And all the department stores and taking us into this international space with Milan and Paris and New York. And she decided that after 28 years, she kind of wanted to go and do other things. And she's actually now teaching communications, and we've actually started hiring some of her students. I decided that I still wanted to carry on.

Julian Vogel [: 00:29:10

And I knew Carrie and Vanessa, who owned BPCM. We'd worked together on so many different brands. They'd done stateside and we'd done UK side, and I'd always really loved working with them, and we'd sort of flirted with working together. And I just called them and said, look, there's this opportunity. Diana's leaving in a year's time. I'm looking for new partners. I'd always wanted to have an office in New York and LA, but I never really wanted to do it myself because I felt it was important to have an agent, an owner operator in each market, rather than just hiring somebody. And they had a small office in London, which actually, at the time, was being run by someone that used to work for me.

Julian Vogel [: 00:29:51

It was very easy and very natural, and it just worked really well. And it allowed me to actually move into other sectors as well. So we were doing fashion and beauty, but that allowed me to go into hospitality and wines and spirits, and then now more into sort of art and architecture and design. So it allowed the agency to take on more categories. And I think that's why we're in such a good position now, is because we didn't stick just to fashion. And actually, if we had just stuck to fashion, we wouldn't have made it through Covid because half our clients decided that they were going to cancel their contracts. So I think it's also about really diversifying and not having all your eggs in one basket.

David M. Watts [: 00:30:35

Cleverly diversifying, because some people have done that and not necessarily made it work. Do you think that clients today are expecting more from pr?

Julian Vogel [: 00:30:45

I think what I find is that I go and have meetings with people and they say, either they say, we don't need pr or we need pr, but when I ask them, what do you mean by pr? They mean sort of clippings in magazines and newspapers. And then when I start to do my talk about storytelling and community, they sort of look slightly bemused. And then there's a bit of an aha moment and they realize that all of that work they're trying to do on their own channels and all the newsletters they're trying to do and the campaigns, and they suddenly realize that that's.

David M. Watts [: 00:31:17

Pr, that's all public relations, that's communications, which is all pr.

Julian Vogel [: 00:31:20

And what we found has been great is that because we have all these amazing relationships and because a lot of the editors we used to work with on editorial are now influencers or kols, and because we have this dress book of architects and chefs and makeup artists who are all creating their own content, that as an agency, we can. I don't know if someone like we were working with Victorian Ox for 17 years. Victorian ox. We can put together a group of chefs or a group of travel writers or a group of artists and then put together these great content campaigns. And then that all goes on their channels and on the talents channels at the same time as trying to get a suitcase in GQ or trying to get a product on a page for a Christmas thing. I think that what's great is that clients really do want more and more and more, and it's our job to educate them and to really understand how we can add value and manage that process.

David M. Watts [: 00:32:23

It's been very interesting because I was just talking about British Vogue and what Vanessa Kinguri has done with digital and experiential and the things from the shopard jewels in the south of France and the red carpets. And it's been extraordinary because that's really what we're talking about. It's all about new things, but they're not really new. It's just a new way of presenting them, isn't it's just that thing about actually, the experiential you're talking about is just a dinner for 20 people or 50 people that we used to do 20 years ago. It's just dressed up now as a whole different thing. More partners.

Julian Vogel [: 00:32:56

And also, I think my husband has an events company, and he's always talking about, he has to look at what's the Instagram moment at the event? Because there are so many other parts. I mean, even like the fashion shows, you remember at the fashion shows, you could just sit and make some notes. And I remember Paula Reed was at Grazia and she was saying, oh, my God, I've got to make notes. I've got to record a message. I've got to be interviewed by the cameras. I've got to take pictures to go on Instagram. I've got to get backstage to get the interview, and then I've still got another 20 shows. Whereas when I started, I think I made a joke once when I was doing the Westwood show, there were 18 people on l that needed seats.

Julian Vogel [: 00:33:43

Like, 18 just in the fashion department. 18. And now there's, what, two people? Two.

David M. Watts [: 00:33:48

Yeah. It is extraordinary. But again, you've seen it from then and how it is now. Social media has fragmented our attention. How has that impacted on pr?

Julian Vogel [: 00:33:57

I think before social media, you could cover a lot more ground with a lot less titles. So if we got things in the national newspapers and GQ and Vogue, we kind of reached most of the target audience. And with social media and this fragmentation, it's really diverted our attention. And so brands have to work a lot harder to get the same level of attention they're having to create a lot more content and then to use that content on so many more platforms. And so even if you think about Twitter, Instagram, Pinterest, TikTok, TikTok, just those. And then how each of those will need the content to be used in a slightly different way. So, yeah, I think it means that we all just have to work a lot harder to get probably less.

David M. Watts [: 00:34:46

With that in mind, I mean, we are living in a crowded media environment from every angle. And all the digital touch points. How do the younger brands or the newer brands compete in that really crowded space?

Julian Vogel [: 00:34:59

Yeah, I mean, it's really hard. Even when we think about ourselves and where we're getting our information from and sort of scrolling through Instagram in the morning and then trying to catch maybe some newspaper stuff on your phone and then some WhatsApp groups that you're in and then some newsletters or a podcast. Yeah, or a podcast or the Bof. I think it's really hard. And actually, I was talking to a young designer the other day, and some of it is just luck. So what we found is, and we're working with this great designer called Luke Derrick. He dressed the actor that plays dirty Fayed, who is at the Golden Globes. And so then his work's on the red carpet.

Julian Vogel [: 00:35:40

We're working with Michael from, you know, there's certain people with the industry that have really championed him, or if you're lucky enough to get onto radar, you know, she'll really help. And I guess in a way, I'm doing that as helping. We're all helping the talent as much as we can. I mean, I always say, first of all, what are your own channels that you can create and you can start broadcasting and putting out your stuff? I remember Harris Reid did that very early on and did that filter with the hat, and everyone did it. So it's really being very clear about your messaging and what you stand for and what's different about you, so that when you're communicating, you stand out, but really putting as much as you can out there on social media and trying to do things that are true to yourself and authentically. Another designer that I helped out is Ollie Schindler. And I loved what he did, and I just sent his lookbook to Dickon at Dover street, and I've done that hundreds of times, and nine times out of ten, nothing happens. And then Ollie called me and went, oh, I've got an appointment at Dover street.

Julian Vogel [: 00:36:52

And then they picked him up and I went, Ollie, you know, this doesn't.

David M. Watts [: 00:36:55

Happen that way in real life. Yeah.

Julian Vogel [: 00:36:58

What I'm saying is that you should still do the things, even if you think, oh, well, no one's ever going to pick me up or no one's ever. They're going to pick somebody up. And it might be that you just happen to be in the right place.

David M. Watts [: 00:37:09

At the right time. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think with that in mind, do you have any sort of wisdom for younger brands in terms of PR and a PR strategy, not giving away your job for free? Because it is that thing. I mean, it's been fascinating to hear. It's so difficult to articulate for young brands what public relations is. And you have beautifully explained it to all our listeners today, which is fantastic. I always say, be original, be authentic. Try to stick, touch something that is original to say, but also realize that you haven't got a lot to say.

David M. Watts [: 00:37:44

Don't use up all your oxygen because you're young, you have a new collection or two collections, you've got to rein it in a little, but do something that's relevant and authentic.

Julian Vogel [: 00:37:54

I think I always say, like, try not to get overwhelmed, because when you're starting with a blank piece of paper and a collection and the world's your oyster, and you could be doing a gazillion things. So I go back to my two realms. So really understand what you're trying to say. Relevancy is, I think, the key word as well, and really trying to do something that isn't following what everyone else has done and something that is original. Look at all those pages in the style titles. Find some of the people that you think that you love what they do, or you love their styling, and just reach out to them and even just reach out to them on Instagram, because it's amazing how few people do actually reach out.

David M. Watts [: 00:38:41

Try to network. I talk about that all the time.

Julian Vogel [: 00:38:45

Even if it's just, you just choose ten stylists, but you have to really believe that they are. Don't just sort of pick them at random and sort of try and engage with them. And also just remember that if they want to borrow your clothes, you may not get them back. They may come back damaged. If there's one person that can champion you and can use your clothes and then dress one of their clients, that can launch an entire career. I think the hard thing is the sales side, because I feel like there's so few retail opportunities. I was actually talking to this designer and saying, can't you guys all sort of slightly get together? And is there someone on your course that was a great artist? Is there someone on your course that was a jewelry designer? Could they not somehow bring all of you together and do some kind of happening? And is there a space in east London or a space can you find, is there a friend who's got something? And could you not just sort of do a showcase and then invite people to that? I was talking to Sarah Moore and she was saying that there's this fantastic one called fashion toirs that. And again, if there's a way of everyone coming together or finding something where you could just pop up.

David M. Watts [: 00:40:00

Yes, but it's really know for many years. And again, part of that process, even before my time at the BFC, the British Fashion Council, it's incredibly difficult. And then you get into this thing, know they don't want to share or they don't want to do this, and then you get into all the personal stuff and then, oh, I'm not doing that with them, or they're not good enough for me. Okay, everybody's getting a break here. It's a really good opportunity. The British Russian Council used to do a lot in showrooms, which was an incredible initiative, but it's that thing of, oh, my goodness, the backfiring and the infizing, and it just becomes, okay, I'm not bothering anymore because I can't deal. You are getting a great opportunity. You're getting an opportunity to meet these editors or buyers or people that could totally change your business or your life, and you're bitching about X, Y and.

Julian Vogel [: 00:40:47

Z. I think the other thing I think also we have to sort of address is the number of students that are coming out of fashion college and are being told that they can have their own label and they can sell at Selfridges, and maybe they need to go and work for a brand first and have that experience. Maybe we're encouraging them to get into huge debt and to produce these collections without any way of selling them. Maybe it's about getting a job first. I mean, there was a moment, we had this funny moment where we were working with lots of young designers. It was the time when the Gucci's and the Vuittons and everything were really coming up and no one was. Remember that time? No one was interested in young designers and everyone was interested in the big brands. And then suddenly, Lee McQueen exploded onto the scene.

Julian Vogel [: 00:41:40

And that's what changed, because suddenly he showed that actually people were interested again in designers. And then, so then everyone thought they were going to be the next McQueen, and they all did their shows. It's not so much about what should they do for their own collection. Maybe it's deciding at the beginning, can you do this?

David M. Watts [: 00:42:01

Do you have what it takes to be a fashion designer? And do you have what it takes to run a business? Are the two questions that I always put, because I'm teaching masters at the moment, and it is quite interesting, fashion buying and also luxury brand management masters, and saying to them, what is it that you want to do? And that's sometimes bewildering. And you're kind of going, but why are you progressing a master's degree if you don't know what you want to do? This should be an incredible means to an end. So, talking about the industry, talking about how the industry works, again, as I say, a lot of people in fashion don't know how fashion works, but students are really on the very edge at the start of it with our career. But also, I think one of the issues, personally, that I've felt a long time and before and at my time with the British Fashion Council, in spite of the amazing projects like Nugen and Vogue Fashion Fund, part of the issue with the history of british fashion is that people came out of fashion schools and thought they could set up a business. And the problem is that it's too easy. You can literally fill out a six page form and you can create a limited company or be self employed. And by tomorrow, with a friend doing this and a friend doing that, you can actually have a fashion label.

Julian Vogel [: 00:43:18

Yeah. And I think there's too much expectation of that. Everyone will do it for nothing. I mean, we had designers owing us 20 grand, which we never got, we never got back. But I think the ones I always felt like, the ones that sort of succeeded was when it was somebody who had the fashion and the design and the talent and then paired with somebody, if you think about someone like Matthew Williamson and know the reason Matthew was able to do his job and then Joseph was able to sort of bring it together. And I think it's that funny thing, isn't it, where everyone's expected to be able to be good at everything.

David M. Watts [: 00:43:55

Absolutely. When really they're fashion designers. And that's always been the argument as well with education. You talk about they should be learning how to run a business as well as studying well, and the school's saying, well, no, we're here to make them the best fashion designers they can be. We don't expect them to run a fashion.

Julian Vogel [: 00:44:10

Wouldn't it be great if London business school teamed up with St Martin's or King's business school teamed up, that there was actually this module where they start introducing each other and then you start to get these groups that could actually even thinking know Valentino and Giacometti and if you look to actually see, or even Pierre Berge and Laurent, that's the secret of success.

David M. Watts [: 00:44:38

Well, I mean, the perfect example is Domenica de Soleil. And Tom Ford isn't, you know, like, literally going from Gucci, which they turned into a billion euro industry, and then creating Tom Ford the label, ten years later, walking away with 1.2 billion in cash. That's how you run a business. Thank you very much.

Julian Vogel [: 00:44:57

It's interesting.

David M. Watts [: 00:44:58

Wouldn't it be wonderful? Before we close, I would just like to have our quick fire round, which is really a little bit more fashion. What is your most embarrassing fashion moment?

Julian Vogel [: 00:45:09

Oh, my most embarrassing fashion moment. I actually got stuck in a lift with Anna Winter at a fashion show. And it was one of those moments where we got into the lift and I was taking her upstairs to actually meet Sienna Miller, who we were doing a show for. And then that way people keep pressing the button so the doors keep reopening, and so they kept almost closing and then reopening, and then they finally closed, and then the lift sort of shorted. And so I was stuck with Anna for quite some time. And then when the lift finally did arrive on the floor where Sienna was, and my only job was to walk Anna from the lift to meet Sienna. There was about 300 people in the room and I couldn't see her and I could feel her eyes on the back of my neck. And then the next thing I knew, she wasn't there.

Julian Vogel [: 00:45:59

And then I look over at the room and she's talking to Sienna, so she didn't really need me.

David M. Watts [: 00:46:05

Sales measurably in that public relations role. But however, that's always interesting. It's always a bit of an issue. But in terms of. I always ask people about their favorite retail store. I mean, people say to me now, oh, well, we shouldn't really be shopping more, we shouldn't be spending more. We know that. But there's always that wonderful thing, know, is there particularly that you like?

Julian Vogel [: 00:46:24

I always feel that's like when you ask a chef, like, what their favourite meal is, and they try and say, can it be a chinese meal? The first store I really remember growing up was Harrods. And then I was thinking, it's not necessarily my favorite store, but every time I go, I'm kind of absolutely blown away by the fact that they've just got everything's there. And you walk through those room after room and it's like every single brand and everything's been done.

David M. Watts [: 00:46:54

Extraordinary.

Julian Vogel [: 00:46:55

I think on one hand it's probably Harris. Just because you get that snapshot. I don't know. I'm loving what Tom Chapman's doing with his interior site abasque, and just bringing together all these makers and all these incredible objects. So I find myself kind of scrolling through.

David M. Watts [: 00:47:15

They've got the DNA, don't they, Tom?

Julian Vogel [: 00:47:17

And then I love, when I'm in Milan, I love going to the fauna Setti store because it's just a sort of magical black and white, black and white mystery.

David M. Watts [: 00:47:25

Fantastic. Our last question. In your eyes, is there any unsung hero in fashion that you would like to give a shout out to? Yeah.

Julian Vogel [: 00:47:36

It's funny, when I was at the fashion awards in December, and I was hearing all of these awards for all these people and all how amazing they were, and it really struck me, no one ever thanks the prs. And my theory is, because designers always want everyone to think they've done it themselves without any. There hasn't been any working the strings.

David M. Watts [: 00:48:00

It all just happened. Magic.

Julian Vogel [: 00:48:03

And then the other thing is all the production people, because all those production companies like Polar, black and Inca, and just how much they do and how they put it together, and they're there for days ahead and they're there all.

David M. Watts [: 00:48:14

Night, and it takes a year to.

Julian Vogel [: 00:48:16

Plan, and they're the ones. I had this great meeting with the VNA a couple of weeks ago, and they said to me, because I'm thinking about doing a book, and they said, well, you're the engine behind fashion. And that was such a lovely. But that was such a lovely way of thinking about it, because that's true, like, production and pr, we're the ones that are kind of. We're sort of making all those dreams kind of happen.

David M. Watts [: 00:48:41

So you're giving pr its unsung hero. Okay. Beautiful segue there. Before we finish, is there anything that you'd like to tell the listeners in terms of where they can find you? Instagram.

Julian Vogel [: 00:48:54

Yeah, I've got my own Instagram, which is Mr. Julian Vogel. But then there's also the modus BPCM site.

David M. Watts [: 00:49:06

I just remembered, haven't you launched a beautiful table?

Julian Vogel [: 00:49:10

That's true. I wasn't going to talk about that.

David M. Watts [: 00:49:12

Please do. I was looking at, I know I'd seen it when it was launched, but I remember the table, the printed table linens, and I just thought, oh, it's so, to have the luxury of having tabletop and table wear that's just so beautiful for a luxury dinner party. Please do tell us.

Julian Vogel [: 00:49:28

Yeah, it was a pre lockdown idea. I guess we were all looking at the sharing economy and looking at not owning quite so much stuff and came up with this idea to sort of a rental service for everything for the table. So the china, glassware, linens, napkins, we launched it in January just before lockdown. So obviously there weren't any events over lockdown, but we used that opportunity as a way of building a lot of social. So we were lending lots of stuff to people at home who were all showing off what they were doing, their.

David M. Watts [: 00:50:02

Dinner parties at home.

Julian Vogel [: 00:50:03

And then now we're sort of three years in and, yeah, it's called Maison Margot. We did that lovely dinner for Chanel for the opening at the v. A. And we've been doing a lot for a lot of celebrities and a lot of weddings. It's interesting to be sort of working on something completely different from fashion.

David M. Watts [: 00:50:21

Fantastic. Well, I just like to say it's been a pleasure having you on the podcast today. Really enjoyed it, and I've learned a little, and we look forward to talking again in the future.

Julian Vogel [: 00:50:31

Love that. Thank you so much.

David M. Watts [: 00:50:34

Thank you for listening to just a fashion minute with me, David M. Watts. If you haven't already, please give the show a follow on your podcast app and on Instagram. For more information, you can email us at podcast@justifashionminute.com this show was produced by one fine clay. Matt Cheney is a series producer, Kazra Ferrugier is a producer and editor. Selena Christophers is the designer. I have been your host, David M. Watts.

David M. Watts [: 00:51:02

And this has been just fashion minute.