Behind the Lens: Simon Frederick and the Art of Representation

David M. Watts [: 00:00:02

Dean, welcome to Just A Fashion Minute. It is great to have you in the studio with us today.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:00:08

Thank you, David. It's really good to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

David M. Watts [: 00:00:12

Do you have any thoughts on our Just A Fashion Minute roundup?

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:00:15

Definitely, the Margiela. Well, that was great seeing that. Wasn't that not? I think everybody Extraordinary. Extraordinary

David M. Watts [: 00:00:23

creativity. Creativity run wild, crazy, and more more is more is the new more.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:00:29

Yeah. And it's good to see mister Galliano just doing what he does best, you know, and, it's it's just, yeah, inspiring. I love that. And, what else stuck out for me? I suppose, The Row with the phones. Interesting move. Yeah. I like the idea of doing something different and sort of, going back to being traditional. You know, I think there's too much noise, you know, going around.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:00:55

Too much tech. I mean, do you think Too much tech. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

David M. Watts [: 00:00:58

It was. I, personally, I don't think it was as publicity stunt. I think they actually thought, why don't people look at the clothes? And looking through your phone is not the same. And, actually, you only get a split second or 2 as the as the clothes pass you by, and then the, you know, the run the just final walk is gone. You know, people don't realize that don't go to fashion shows, that they last, you know, 7, 8 minutes. And there could be 36, 46, 50. Just to go in like that. Yes.

David M. Watts [: 00:01:26

Literally like tennis back and forth except you're only going in one direction. Do you think it was a wise thing to do? I mean, a lot of there was a lot

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:01:33

of rumblings and grumblings and murmurings. Stopping people from using their phones at the shows. I just thought it was quite a novel idea, but then everyone uses their phone. I think the guy, you know, the guy is it style.com? I think he even made

David M. Watts [: 00:01:46

some Style.com.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:01:48

Style.com, let's say. Sorry. You know, he made some comment about that. And, and I think also during fashion week, I think the Instagram went down, and so a lot of people couldn't post on Instagram. And that caused a bit of a you know, everyone was like, you'd think, oh my god. It's like It's

David M. Watts [: 00:02:07

the end of the world.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:02:07

Got your eyes. We've become your pet of

David M. Watts [: 00:02:10

paper. So dependent upon it. I mean, it was quite interesting because Vanessa Friedman of the New York Times, who I am a huge fan of, an advocate for anybody who wants to learn about fashion, fashion business, fashion styling, fashion writing, she's the person. Absolutely.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:02:25

And she had a little

David M. Watts [: 00:02:26

bit of a kind of snark at them, which I was a little bit surprised at. Again, we've become so used to, you know, people recording it, people sending it, and then they're you know, I suppose, in some ways, journalists, because it moves so quickly, they have so many shows, they use it to record stuff. It's a tool. Pictures are it is a tool. It's a tool. And then to have that taken away from them, it's suddenly it's like, I have a gap, you know. I can't post any pictures. I can't talk about but I have to go to the next show, and I've got a space.

David M. Watts [: 00:02:51

So I kinda in one respect, I get it, but I was still a little bit surprised. So today, we're going to talk about the subject of models and modeling agencies. It's been a hot topic over the years. Are we seeing enough diversity in our models? Dean and I will be exploring this later. But before we dive into this, tell me, what is your earliest memory of being interested in models? How did you start out in your career?

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:03:15

I grew up in Scotland. Glasgow got voted City of Culture. They decided to hold, competition to find Scotland's next big kind of fashion designer. And I had an interest in fashion at that time. I thought I was going to be the next Gianni Versace. I entered the competition and got chosen to basically put on a collection and be involved in the fashion show. I also had to choose the models for the show and make the collection. Because at the time, you know, hindsight, looking back, I can see how it all worked, you know.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:03:52

I I chose this girl, she ended up being photographed in one of my outfits, and then she got signed to a modeling agency, and then I met the agents from her modeling agency, and then basically got a job working for them the next day almost. My first task, I had to collect a whole bunch of shoes from the shoe store. And from then, the first my first job was taping the soles on the shoes. So I thought it was actually just getting the shoes from the shoe shop. But no, I I actually had to sit down and, you know, put the the mask in tape, cut the tape around the soles.

David M. Watts [: 00:04:33

Which was to protect the shoes?

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:04:34

To protect the shoes so that they can be soled. And, so literally, I did start from the bottom.

David M. Watts [: 00:04:41

It's I'm fascinated from the grand literally from the grand up. I love the masking tape. That is brilliant. So my quote of the moment is, to all those people who shut the door on my face, I'm coming back to buy the building. Did anybody ever shut the door on your face?

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:04:57

They all did. And they still do. That's that's part of today, isn't it? That's part of what we do, and that's part of this job, you know, is that the doors get shut in your face.

David M. Watts [: 00:05:10

But clearly, you don't take no for an answer.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:05:11

But you don't take no for an answer. You can't work in this industry and take no for an answer. Am I gonna say, Aaron, give away my secrets? Well, yes. I will. So Aaron, give away my secrets. It's the art of turning a no into a yes. Boom.

David M. Watts [: 00:05:24

That's it. Fantastic. We like that. Before we take a break, I want to ask you a question that I ask all my guests. How do you define fashion?

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:05:36

Fashion is, obviously, it's clothes, it's music, but it's also a movement. It's a gang. It's, you know, it's a group of people that are into a particular style, a particular designer.

David M. Watts [: 00:05:49

So you see it more as a almost like a personality rather than a thing or an object.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:05:54

I think there's so many different varieties of, like, looks and images and, you know, and tribes. Fashion is it's a tribe, you know? So you find out what tribe you belong to, and you be yourself in that, or you're comfortable in that, you know? Think fashion and style. There's a little debate there.

David M. Watts [: 00:06:14

Very different. There's a little debate about that. Earlier. Very different. Yeah. Do you think style is intrinsic? Do you think it's in your DNA? Or do you think or can you learn to be stylish?

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:06:27

I think style is individual. It's individuality. And people either like your style or they don't. Okay? I never slag anybody off because

David M. Watts [: 00:06:38

of how they dress. If they're consistent with it, I maybe look and I

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:06:42

think, oh, okay. That's their style.

David M. Watts [: 00:06:44

Style. Yeah.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:06:45

Do you know what I mean? You know?

David M. Watts [: 00:06:46

The famous Iris Apoll, you know, who we just lost recently, you know. And she said, you know, if you don't dress like anybody else, you don't have to think like anybody else Yeah. Which is just amazing.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:06:57

She was great, wasn't she? Oh, a 100 and 2. Yeah. You said that, sir. Amazing. Amazing. Like a 102 either, does she?

David M. Watts [: 00:07:04

She was extraordinary. Yeah. So fashion and style, it's very different. The subject of models and modeling agencies, as I say, has been very topical. Do we really see enough models of all backgrounds and ethnicities on the catwalks of the big luxury brands and on the covers of the magazines still today? Representation of plus size models seems to come in and out of fashion. Pun intended. And to the other extreme, for a few seasons, it would seem that fashion is reverting back to using super thin models, and that's across both men and women on the catwalk. So we're kind of asking the question, does modeling have an image problem? With that in mind, we have a couple of questions.

David M. Watts [: 00:08:00

Why does it happen that the super thin models come back into fashion and fashion designers start using them again for the shows. It definitely seems there are more really thin models. And, particularly, men. I haven't seen so many really, really ultra slim, actually thin male models. You know, why does this happen? Is this back to how designers think that their brands should be represented? Or is it more complicated than that? Or less, you know, less considered than that? I mean, it it comes up a lot.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:08:37

I can only talk about my experience and what I do. I can't I can't sit here and

David M. Watts [: 00:08:41

We're not we don't want you to talk about for the oil industry. We're just gonna talk about it's it's it's about your experience.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:08:46

When we go out looking for models, you know, because part of my job is actually scouting and looking for models. And, then I have scouts that work for me as well. So, I look at the models that they show me, but I think what's really great about what I do for a living and how I work. I think like a client, I think like the client that's going to pick the models. Okay. And I know what they're looking for. It's supply and demand in my job business. It's a business, you know, that's what we do.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:09:16

We're a business. And, we want to get our models booked. We want to work with our clients, want to work with all the clients who want to work with everybody. You know, we don't want not to work with people because, you know, we don't have the right models for them. So we want to, we want to cater for all of our clients. Now the industry is open. I think the industry is doing a lot of good at the moment. Actually, I feel like it's more open.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:09:39

I love how especially, you know, you talked about earlier having the doors closed in your face. Somebody's shutting the door on your face. Right. Okay. So a lot of those people that shut the doors of my face, you know, they're now doing what we were doing, like, 17 years ago. Okay? So models with tattoos, you know, models that were 5 foot 7, like, male models that were 5 foot 7, girls that were just a little bit more curvy. We were doing that back then. Do you know what I mean? You know, more you know, guys with the the mixed race guys with the freckles and stuff like that.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:10:08

We were doing all of that back then.

David M. Watts [: 00:10:10

But that was because of you?

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:10:11

That was because of yeah.

David M. Watts [: 00:10:12

That wasn't because you were looking at a trend.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:10:14

No. No. Exactly. Exactly. And when I started in the industry, I used to love working with what we call the edgy models. No one say no one uses that word anymore, edgy. But a lot of the models that I worked with were the edgy ones. And, and sometimes with models who, you know, like, scout a girl or a guy, and, the agent, maybe the some majority of the other agents thought, oh, well, these models won't work.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:10:41

And I'd be like, oh, no, let's give them a try. And then, so all the sort of edgy models or difficult models, the ones that they the the mainstream are not going to book. I could get them booked. And I got a knack for it. And I enjoyed it. And I like those I like that kinda quirky look, you know. I think what, you know, other people have done to to encourage the labels to be more open and to be more diverse. I think it's important, and, you know, you see it yourself when you go through the airports and you look at the magazine rack.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:11:19

There's lots of different faces, all shapes and sizes and shades.

David M. Watts [: 00:11:24

Yes.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:11:25

And it's brilliant. I think it's great. I think it's really, really good. Yeah. So we're more open. So have you shown me somebody now that's maybe curvy or

David M. Watts [: 00:11:35

A little different alternative.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:11:37

Oh, that is alternative. Exactly. And the vice but if I think they have the look, then we're gonna take them on.

David M. Watts [: 00:11:45

Interesting. So you were talking about your scouting days or your scouting experiences, and the edgier models. So what drew you to those models?

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:11:55

When I'm out scouting, I'm thinking about my clients. Okay? I'm thinking about if I see someone on the street, who's going to light that client? Which which client is going to light that model, what campaigns can I see that face in, what shows? Usually, it's more about the shows. What shows do I see that that model in? I'm not perfect, you know. I like imperfections. Usually, the criteria for, like, a d one model is, mostly, like, a real people, streety kind of look, but with a model edge. You might see them in the room, and they're like 510, and they won't look like, you know, the the typical Like

David M. Watts [: 00:12:35

a typical inverted commas. Like a typical

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:12:36

inverted commas model. Model. But you

David M. Watts [: 00:12:39

can see something. You can see something.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:12:41

Yeah. And, and that's why I think sometimes it's it can be quite easy to look at models that maybe not, you know, sorry, look at potentials that might not be the the high requirement or, you know, and and and they have a little something about them.

David M. Watts [: 00:12:58

But that's obviously something that you probably do almost by osmosis. You've been doing it for so long. You can pick up that vibe from a 100 yards. And I vibe when I say that, you know

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:13:09

like, they stick out. Like, it's

David M. Watts [: 00:13:10

a sore thumb. Yeah. It's like me with fashion, you know, and I've helped and mentored 100, you know, nearly a 1000, I counted fashion start ups. I can look at a fashion collection and go, yes. No. No. No. No.

David M. Watts [: 00:13:22

No. No. Yes. No. No. No. And literally in 3 seconds. And I'm not being arrogant, but I've done it for so long Yeah.

David M. Watts [: 00:13:31

For so many years across so many fashion areas. It just becomes like osmosis, like breathing. I can just look at it and go, well, yes. Potential may be absolutely not, categorically not. And you probably do the same with faces. It's probably just your it's so automatic. Yeah. But so ingrained in how you do your job.

David M. Watts [: 00:13:50

It just becomes really easy. As you say, they stick out like a sore thumb. Yeah. It's just fantastic. Yeah. Putting the modesty aside, it probably has to be reflected that you are kind of shaping public opinion when it comes to models and what the public see. And I know you said the client comes first. But, again, that client is also, I suspect, very much embedded into what you're thinking.

David M. Watts [: 00:14:11

Yeah. And as you say, it's a journey and a relationship. So they're not going to suddenly go, no. No. No. No. No. No.

David M. Watts [: 00:14:16

Everything you sent me is wrong. Although, I'm sure probably that can happen. But I suppose, you know, you have the confidence in your models. They have the confidence in you. So do you think by showing these models that are slightly different or slightly alternative, and I hate using those words, but, you know, for the context of what we're talking about, other models, do you think that you are changing public perception?

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:14:37

It's a business. Okay. I keep saying that word. It's a business. Okay. And my job is with my clients, okay, is to provide them with a service. The clients are always constantly looking for that new face or for something that's fresh and exciting. Okay? I think, the beauty about what I do is that I don't really have to follow and do what everyone else is doing.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:15:08

So I can actually take a risk and take more of a risk on, you know, if I see someone on the street and they do look edgy or they don't look like all the models that are getting booked at the moment. But they have something about them. And because I've got good relationships with a lot of these casting directors and stylists and photographers, I understand that I think like them, you know. So they're only gonna work with what they've got in front of them. But I know, oh, well, look at try this one. This one looks really good. There's a certain photographer that we always used to work with. I knew them when they were testing.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:15:45

And they used to do lots of shoots for, like, ID and Arena Homme Place. And, you know, this person's doing, like, films now, whatever. But I knew that that this photographer loved that kind of streety if you think of, like, Oliver Twist, and if you think about those kind of characters, you know, he was into that sort of look and those kind of, like, these guys might

David M. Watts [: 00:16:09

Cheeky chappy.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:16:10

Yeah. Cheeky chappy. You might look at these guys and think they're gonna rob you. Right? But actually, they're the most adorable and, like, amazing guys. Yeah. I just knew. So it's just about thinking out the box, And that's what we did. And this photographer would shoot these models, and they would get amazing editorials.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:16:30

Fascinating. Now

David M. Watts [: 00:16:33

we hear some of the negative side of modeling and the modeling world, severe dieting, burnout, body image pressure, cosmetic procedures. So as an agency, how do you manage these issues?

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:16:50

So, I mean, at d one, we're very kind of boutique, you know, even though we've got, like, multiple offices and stuff. We're very still quite boutique, very hands on. Like, we don't really have that, you know, the models burning out like that, and, talking about, the I mean, I mean okay, I'm gonna okay. He said that, and then I'm gonna go, well, actually we do. Okay? But, but there was I mean, recently, I was talking to, one of our new models who's doing very well. And they were really concerned because when they were doing fittings with this designer in Paris, a lot of the other models were a lot skinnier than they were. And they were questioning whether it it would be a problem because everybody else seemed a lot thinner than my model, you know. Because I've got the time to speak to my talent, you know, I could say to him and have a word with him and be like, listen.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:17:47

You're there. You're booked. There's nothing wrong with you. If there was anything wrong, you wouldn't be there in in that room. You know? And this person is healthy. This person clearly looks amazing. Yeah. Right? And I give this advice to any potential model.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:18:03

Like, don't look at other models and compare.

David M. Watts [: 00:18:06

Mhmm. Very very hard not to do in that world.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:18:08

But it's part of the business, though. If you want to succeed in this industry, you can't be comparing yourself to everybody because this industry is subjective, you know. So you can be the person that's booking all the models. And if you like redheads. They're gonna be here. And I'm blonde with green eyes, you ain't gonna book me. So there's no point me trying to compare or trying. All I can do is give you the best version of who I am.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:18:35

Okay? And that's I feel is my job is to try and teach that to my talent that when you walk into a room, when you, you know, meet a client, if they're not gonna book you for that job, they might book you for something else, you know. So it's about presenting yourself, showing up as the best version.

David M. Watts [: 00:18:52

In the best in the best light. Yeah. And having the the right attitude. Because because I think as you say, it's very easy. I mean, I can't imagine the rejection. It's very easy to get crestfallen and just like, oh, reject it again. But I mean, actors will tell you, you know, we only get one job out of a 100 auditions.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:19:09

Try owning an agency. Right? Like, I have to deal with the rejection too.

David M. Watts [: 00:19:13

Yes. Of course, you do. Do you know

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:19:15

what I mean? I have to deal with rejection every day.

David M. Watts [: 00:19:18

Therapist and mother and father.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:19:20

Right. And then I've got to be therapist and a mother and father to myself

David M. Watts [: 00:19:24

And run a business.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:19:25

And be businessy and, you know, be the boss. Yeah. This is this is this is the industry that

David M. Watts [: 00:19:31

Perfect.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:19:31

This is part of the course.

David M. Watts [: 00:19:33

Yeah. So d one models has offices in London, New York, Los Angeles. Yes. You're one of the very few black men at the top of the modeling industry, without question. Do you see yourself in the vanguard leading from the front?

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:19:50

I sort of giggle when I hear you say that. Do I see myself leading? I don't really see myself, like, leading, you know? All I'm doing is staying in my lane, doing the best that I can do with what I've got and learning. It's all about learning, you know, and trying to do better. I think, for sure, I definitely have a knowledge of this industry and how to work in this industry. I'm not perfect. But who is perfect? But I learn, and I learn pretty quick. I don't think I lead from the front. I don't don't even even know how one would do that.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:20:31

Well, I well, I think I think

David M. Watts [: 00:20:32

part I think part of that the the question, specifically, I think of the fact that, you know, one of my issues with fashion is that the lack of diversity, which is gonna what we're gonna cover in this podcast series. There are not many people of color who run modeling agencies, full stop, anywhere. You have an agency with international offices and you have been doing it for a long time. There are not many people of color who are managing directors and CEOs of fashion production companies, or public relations agencies or even fashion brands. So, you know, the reason I say that is because whether you are too modest to say, actually, you know, what we've been doing, and not just recently, but for many, many years is actually leading by example. And you've kind of told me that in a very sort of modest way. You know, you see people who are doing all the things that you were doing, as you say, way back then, you know, with the different models, the different looks, more diversity. Part of it's become part of the conversation anyhow.

David M. Watts [: 00:21:41

Part of it's become a bit trendy. We know the impact of Black Lives Matter. We know how that's impacted hugely on model selection, model choices, diversity. But also, as I was talking with another guest, I do believe that that whole diversity inclusion thing is moving backwards. I think, you know, and as as he put it, you know, we've already, you know, you've had your quota, you know, therefore, it's time to move on. Yeah. You know, and I don't know whether you feel in fashion and modeling that that's the same thing. But, you know, it's definitely for from my view, from the outside, that we do have issues with that.

David M. Watts [: 00:22:14

And I'm just wondering in terms of the model world, does it you know, do you see challenges in that as well?

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:22:20

I think it's getting better. Okay. That's good to hear. I'm very optimistic. I feel like it it's definitely getting better. There's some great new black talent around. It's funny I'll tell you the story, actually. Because, we've just moved into hack new to Hackney Wick.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:22:38

We've got a new space in Hackney Wick. And, thank you. It's great. I was walking into the studio, I think on a it was like a Saturday, and I was just popping some things into the office, you know. And there was, this other this black girl there. She's looking for a space, you know. She's looking for, like, a room or something. And I was, oh, where are you going? You know.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:22:57

I started talking to her. And, it turns out she's a model agent. And she's just started out. And I took, like, that time to, like, to speak to her. I introduced myself to her. I took her up to my office and showed her my office, and, you know, and and really got talking to her. And you know what? I at that moment, I could see there was an I was making an impression on her. You can have all this.

David M. Watts [: 00:23:24

If you work hard for 30 years, I need I feel like a real dick, don't I? But anyway. But it but at that but you know what?

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:23:33

I did feel really good because I didn't have that when I started. My ex boss, you know, that's the only person that I had that I could see that looked like me, successful, and and doing what I wanted to do. So that was the only point of reference that I had. You know? You know? Yeah. It's great now there's photographers. I heard you talk about Martin Rose recently. I I feel like, again, it's it's it's it's getting better. But this thing about the quota thing, this is the bit that's why we have to keep pushing because we don't want that conversation to ever come up, you know? And I feel like it's about fighting for the rates and fighting for making sure we get paid the same amounts of money that other people get paid.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:24:18

Because what they do now when they're doing their diversity thing, is that the rates are all cut, and they're not paying the same money as, like, they used to pay. We had this recently, and I thought, well, why does it just because it's in the you know, and I was thinking, why should she get paid less money when I know if I did this job and it's for another type of model, they're gonna get paid more. Yes. Indeed. And you can't even say that because I have to be because I have to be You have

David M. Watts [: 00:24:46

to be very careful. Of course. Dramatic. Of course.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:24:48

Of course. And how I do it. And that's why I love Naomi Campbell. She's the only person I'm gonna name drop because she's but she uses her platform, and she calls people out because she's had a career, and she's got a career. And She's able to with

David M. Watts [: 00:25:02

the new exhibition of the DNA coming up.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:25:04

She don't.

David M. Watts [: 00:25:04

But I wanna just talk about the quota thing. Yeah. Because that's very interesting. Because it's that it's back to that, almost an historic thing about, you know, well, we've got the one black model. Yeah. I mean, back in the day, it was like, it was a Pat McGrath. I can't remember who who that model that black model. And then one of the few designers really through the through history, in terms of recent history, was Yves Saint Laurent, who used a lot of black models Yes.

David M. Watts [: 00:25:31

And Asian model you know, different diverse models all the time, not just one show. But it was still that thing of, you know, well, we've kind of we've got our black model. We've done that. We've had our black model or our plus size model in the show. Let's move on.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:25:46

I mean, talk about plus size models and curve models, you know, that I love I love that that the industry is doing that. But if you think about it from a designer's point of view, so them making all their clothes, like, for the catwalk shows, and they have to make them all sample size so that everyone can

David M. Watts [: 00:26:03

fit in the clothes. You know? It's difficult. It is, but the irony being that, you know, we know that real human size, real women's size Yeah. Is not sample size. Yeah. Not to you know, I'm not trying to trick you into, but is that you know, it is that thing of, you know, the real what is the average size woman today, you know?

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:26:21

But I am but but remember how I got into this before. I was I thought I was gonna be a fashion designer. So I under and and I also I've put on a collection. So I understand what it's like like getting the looks together and and making the clothes. So there's a uniform of the measurements, you know, that's that's what one uses, you

David M. Watts [: 00:26:43

know. Totally.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:26:44

But then I do feel also if we went back to how designers were with especially, like, making clothes, you know, for their models and using muses. I feel like that's where we can become more open and where, you know, if if your muse is, like, someone like me, 5 foot nothing and, you know, whatever, then it's I feel like the designers have to do more, you know, because all we can do is we just do supply and demand.

David M. Watts [: 00:27:13

Yeah.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:27:13

So it's not it's not our it's not our fault.

David M. Watts [: 00:27:16

Okay. So Okay. It's it's a it's a very I mean, it's it's a very it's an ongoing conversation, isn't it, really? And it's not

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:27:23

I'm probably gonna get so much hate mail.

David M. Watts [: 00:27:25

It's a multilay no. You're not gonna get hate mail at all. You're adorable. And you're getting so much more Scottish as we progress. I love it. But we're coming to the end of the show, and it would be nice to have a couple of fashion moments. Okay. What's your most embarrassing fashion moment?

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:27:41

Okay. It's not really like a fashion it's not like an embarrassing moment, but I was kinda, like, in the middle of this situation, and I just didn't really know what to do. I was backstage, you know when Marc Jacobs was at Louis Vuitton, and it was his last show. And basically, I was backstage with the model, and the, the Wi Fi cut out. Okay? So the Wi Fi cut out, and then these sort of 2 men came in, like secret service men, like, speaking into the, you know, they swept the room, and then, like, this woman walks in with the bulb and the glasses. And it was like Anna Wintour. She'd obviously just come to because it was Mark's last show for Louis Vuitton, so she was all coming to

David M. Watts [: 00:28:22

Just backstage.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:28:23

Getting Mark. Yeah. And I'm just sort of standing there, like, sort of, like, okay. I maybe I should go, or maybe I should.

David M. Watts [: 00:28:31

Slightly rabbit in the headlights. Yeah. I mean deer in the headlights.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:28:34

Like, I didn't really feel it was an embarrassing moment, but I did feel kind of like, okay. That's the one time I felt like, because usually, anyone walks in. Hi. How are you? Or she wasn't there to speak to anyone. She was there just to speak to him. You know? And obviously, I I'm so sure I probably got missed by the guys.

David M. Watts [: 00:28:50

I love I I love that. And as you will come to discover, somebody else has a reference with Anna Wintour, that you're about to hear, which I love. So do you have I know we we're talking about overconsumption and too much shopping for fashion. Do you have a favorite retail site? Favorite store? I do. But they don't exist anymore. Okay. Who were they?

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:29:11

And I used to love going into this boutique in Paris called Collettes.

David M. Watts [: 00:29:16

-Oh, Collettes.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:29:17

-You remember Collettes?

David M. Watts [: 00:29:18

-Yes. -Yeah.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:29:19

I loved going in there and you know, just like I think it was the one place every time I go to Paris on, like, work, whatever, I would always make sure I'd go in.

David M. Watts [: 00:29:29

As did most people in fashion. Right.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:29:31

I just loved Taipan, you know, oh, yeah. The Dior just designed this specifically for the store. And Yeah.

David M. Watts [: 00:29:37

It was such a clever concept really because because, you know, what she did was, initially I mean, I think, personally, I just feel it got a little bit too over commercialized towards the

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:29:49

end. It was a must be expensive then.

David M. Watts [: 00:29:52

Nobody was becoming, like, tchotchkes and bits and pieces and, like, you know, okay. Enough already. But when it started, what was what I did love about the fashion is they curated it. I know it's overused the word. But every collection, every season, they would do their edits of what were the looks. So if it was a denim jacket, they would have the one from that was 250 your if you're lucky. €250 up to 2,000. They'll have the Balenciaga prices.

David M. Watts [: 00:30:25

And yeah. Oh, the rest. But they would have the denim jacket. They would have the cargo pants. They would have the white shirts, and there would only be 5. Yeah. But, you know and that was the entire makeup of the store. So And I thought it was the first

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:30:39

time that we saw that collab.

David M. Watts [: 00:30:42

Absolutely. But it was also it was also a very sort of egalitarian. It was an you know, if you had could afford €250, you could find something in collab that was in fashion. And I'm there we are. Literally, inverted commas, in fashion. Yeah. But, also, if you want to buy the Balenciaga version that was €6,000, they would have it curated into that collection. Yeah.

David M. Watts [: 00:31:03

And it was, you know, and it was you know, they'd have Thom Browne, which was this is back in the day, you know. You know, Tom Brown totally changed men's fashion. Most people don't realize. You know, the shrunken suits, the short trousers, the gray, the uniform look. But Colette was my

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:31:19

head now is your it

David M. Watts [: 00:31:20

was so amazing. And it was. You would and, actually, even towards the end, you would have to queue up. And I never stand in a queue. I never keep Even as fashion. But But it was an amazing store. Amazing. So we want to know, in your eyes, is there an unsung hero in the industry that you would like to give a shout out to?

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:31:42

Yes. I do. Do you know James Scully? I know that name. Yeah. Like, that's the one. You know, there's there's not really many like that. And, you know, he he did casting. There's some people that believe in in the fashion.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:31:57

Okay? And will call it out how they see it. The collection is not nice and not good. And he's been doing that recently. And his critiques, like, are on point. But where he's not on any kind of has to rely on getting tickets or, you know, wants to get sponsorship for their magazine, so they can't be too mean. Yeah. He can say it how how it is. And, you know, he's very supportive.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:32:22

He's very supportive. And, yeah, and his people wanna check him out.

David M. Watts [: 00:32:26

He's your unsung hero.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:32:28

Yeah. Because he will tell you how it is, and he talks about the yeah. And he's not mean about it. It's critique.

David M. Watts [: 00:32:34

Yes.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:32:34

And I feel that a lot of these designers, a lot of these campaigns, a lot of these editorials, they need an honest voice. They need an honest voice. It's like the emperor's got no clothes on of something. And I I can't even sit and say anything as shit anymore.

David M. Watts [: 00:32:50

No. Because I've

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:32:50

got bills to pay.

David M. Watts [: 00:32:52

You can. Okay. Shout out officially noted.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:32:56

Oh, no.

David M. Watts [: 00:32:57

Okay. Lastly Yeah. It's gone all too quickly. Tell our listeners what you're wearing today Oh. And why you chose this outfit.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:33:08

Because because I know that you're gonna ask why it's wearing. So I I sort of thought, okay, well, I need to, but I actually chose what I thought would be quite comfortable. You know? That's good. And so I've got, like, my little bomber jacket on, because that's kinda like a homage to back in the day, you know? I I loved my dance, my house music, and this is what we used to wear back in the day in the warehouse parties, and we had used to have like, the get, you know, the the Grolsch beer bottle, the little tag things on the jackets and stuff. So that's my home for and then I thought, you know, because I'm love my high fashion. So I've got, like, a Saint Laurent, like, t shirt on with the, you know, but it's Saint Laurent, Hedi Le Man Saint Laurent.

David M. Watts [: 00:33:53

Oh, Hedi Slimane. It's not. You know? It's not. It's not it's not the current.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:33:59

It's not the it's not the current, you know? They're very old school. Vintage sound. Vintage sound. Is it could I call it vintage now?

David M. Watts [: 00:34:06

We can call it whatever you

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:34:07

like. Okay.

David M. Watts [: 00:34:07

It's sort of leopard print, tone on tone, slightly muted leopard print. Yeah. It's like a gray.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:34:13

And Nudie Jeans, that label. I really love that. You know, it's very you buy the jeans, and if they're torn, or they they split, whatever, you can take them back, and they they fix them up. Nervous for life. Yeah. Which is, I love that concept because it's good for the environment. You know? We've gotta think about that.

David M. Watts [: 00:34:33

It has been fantastic talking to you today, and I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation and very insightful about the industry. Particularly given, you know, it is a very personal thing to you, not just your career. But, you know, it's very interesting to hear it from your insight because you are very rare in the industry. And I think you are incredibly humble about it. And, and that's very interesting to hear too. But, thank you very much for joining us today. Thank you.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:35:04

It's a great pleasure. Me. It's been really great. And, yeah. Thank you so so much.

David M. Watts [: 00:35:10

Do you want to tell anybody where they can find you

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:35:13

on Instagram? Absolutely. If anyone out there wants some, like, advice or interested in, like, you know, anything to do with modeling at d one models is the is the Instagram is that hashtag or no. No. No. Handle. Handle. Handle. Yeah.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:35:31

Atdonemodels.

David M. Watts [: 00:35:33

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Reported. There we go. Have it. Dean, it's been a pleasure.

David M. Watts [: 00:35:37

Thank you very much for coming on the show.

Dean Cleary Patterson [: 00:35:39

Thank you. Bye.